These days I am listening to an old TSATU podcast of Amit Varma (AV) with the economist, Prof. Ashwini Deshpande (AD). This podcast, raised a couple of questions in my mind. This post is to explain those points.
During my professional life, I have also worked in the areas of exclusion and discrimination in different parts of the world (ASHA workers, most of whom belonged to SC groups in the image above). However, compared to AD, I have much less experience with quantitative view of these issues based on data.
With this little introduction, let me go to the points raised by AD which raised questions in my mind.
Creamy Layer & Affirmative Action
The first question came to my mind was when she spoke about the creamy layer controversy in the SC reservations. She asked, why do we raise this question about the exclusion of creamy layer only for SC reservation and not for exclusion of creamy layers for other caste groups. I could not understand this point.
Are there reservations for general caste groups from which creamy layers should be excluded? Which reservations?
Did she mean that persons from rich or privileged backgrounds should be excluded automatically (not allowed to participate) in some competitions or jobs? Won't that be considered a reverse-discrimination, and can it be done legally?
On the other hand, I am aware that in areas like disability, no one would ever say that disabled children of a disabled person who has already benefited from an affirmative action should be excluded. But to apply that logic to caste-reservations, would mean that caste is like a disability in a way, a physical marker or a deeper social marker, that does not go away with education and material well being?
My understanding has been that by excluding creamy layers of SC would provide more opportunities for SC persons from less privileged backgrounds and would enlarge the base of SC persons in better jobs. However, I can see that only a small percentage of SC persons are able to reach high school or university level and if we exclude creamy layer, those seats will be taken over by non-SC candidates - so, we need to understand the lack of competitiveness in the creamy layer persons.
Reasons of Lack of Competitiveness Among persons from Creamy Layer
AD said that 3-4 generations of better jobs and incomes for creamy layer families are not enough to compensate for their backwardness lasting for centuries. So I think that the issue here would be to understand the nuances of why children from well-to-do families, going to good schools but belonging to SC, continue to need affirmative action? What determines their lack of capacity to compete with others? Can there be other kinds of interventions to support them?
I am also curious to know if there is data about the children of creamy layer of SC? For example, are their studies comparing economically better-off SC families to non-SC poor families? How are the two groups different? For example, is it a question of internalised stigma due to caste which is stronger than stigma around poverty? If yes, how does stigma affect them and which additional barriers do they face?
Names and Surnames
During the podcast, there was some discussion about the way Dalit persons can be identified by their names and thus face discrimination.
Perhaps, one way to deal could be to have a law where any SC family can legally change their family names and choose any names from other castes. If people can't identify the castes from the names, perhaps the caste system will be weakened?
Women engaged in family-based economic activities
AD said that a lot of "non-earning" women are engaged in and contribute to home-based economic activities, but they are not recognised as earning members of the family. I have talked about this issue to women groups in a few states, especially in Karnataka and Maharashtra. I found that the women engaged in such activities are very much aware of their economic contribution to the families, their families recognise it and women used this recognition to negotiate roles, benefits and activities that they desire for themselves or their families. However, it is possible that this is not quantified in the data. We did not do a quantitative survey about it.
It was a similar experience while talking to ASHA workers in some states - they may not earn much money, but they gain the power to use their roles to improve their social standing and for negotiating greater powers inside their families and outside in wider communities. Again, we did not make a proper survey about their castes, but from my interactions with about 10 groups of ASHA workers in 2 districts of Maharashtra, around 60% were SC and about 15% were ST. While talking to them about the challenges of doing the ASHA work, I don't recall any of them ever raising an issue of their caste.
So, IMO, there are many aspects of this subject which need greater data and understanding. However, I think that it is time to stop talking about eliminating castes. As
long as we have to ask people to get certificates of their castes so
that they can access benefits, we are strengthening the caste system. A
more realistic aim can be to eliminate inhuman
treatments forced on specific groups of untouchable persons through precise and targeted interventions.
Conclusions
During the podcast, AD did not say anything about issues of hierarchies and discrimination among the different SC groups themselves, about which I had heard during the field work in India. What role does that play in the overall scheme of things?
In my experience about caste-related-research, another problem was that it was never clear which groups persons are talking about when they talk of caste oppressions or use terms like Dalits. Often, they put together all the persons doing manual work, and not just the untouchable castes. Their aim is to create a wide coalition of marginalised groups and not to ensure the improvement in life-conditions of specific marginalised groups such as untouchable caste groups, which I feel should be priority for all caste related work.
I loved listening to AD and to her insights and hopefully I will look for her publications and read them as well. It is a great podcast and if you are interested in development issues related to caste and to women in India, do listen to it.
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